IPODS?

[holg]

Great discussion here.

One thing that really sucked lately was a test of one big major label (Sony/BMG) to sell download coupons through big recordshop chains. You obtain a code for - let's say - 9,99? and acchieve a free download for a certain album. Plus you buy a booklet and can create your own fully CD at home after downloading it.

I was very happy to see that people do not buy that format. Big bullshit.

The industry (and the shops) make the customers feel that it's totally allright to download music with such tests.

And ... be sure: Customers do not not care who will get the money after all.

[Prof]

Great discussion here.

One thing that really sucked lately was a test of one big major label (Sony/BMG) to sell download coupons through big recordshop chains. You obtain a code for - let's say - 9,99? and acchieve a free download for a certain album. Plus you buy a booklet and can  create your own fully CD at home after downloading it.

I was very happy to see that people do not buy that format. Big bullshit.

The industry (and the shops) make the customers feel that it's totally allright to download music with such tests.

And ... be sure: Customers do not not care who will get the money after all.

That's - pardon the expression - right on the money, Holg. And coming from someone who actually experiences the mechanisms of selling music every day, that means something.

To me, the test you mentioned is downright cynicism. Use the chain retailer to sell virtual product to see if this is economically viable - and if it is, set up your own record store in cyberspace, then stop manufacturing physical product and leaving the real record store to rot. Imagine the cost-effectiveness of it! Such a brilliant scheme could only be thought up by corporate managers, the New World Order of soulless business school graduates in expensive suits and flashy cars on lease. This is yet another parasitic incarnation of globalization, if you look at it closely: it's destroying traditional structures, local initiatives, culture and physical interaction, all for the mighty Mammon Dollar.

Again a lot of it comes down to a complete disregard for culture in the broader sense of the term - and to the lack of education about the essence of cultural expression. This will not change: from the get-go, nearly everything in life 'teaches' you that numbers are infinitely more important than just about everything else.

[holg]

Couldn't say it better, Prof.

As you know, I am really happy to work on the DVD side of things (getting worse aswell) but my heart will always belong to music. As much as I love a good movie.

I was very happy to see that customers did not accept that new format. But, to be honest, I believe the do not see the point in paying for something they can get for free somewhere else. It has nothing to do with their respect for musical culture.

[Ghoul]

The industry (and the shops) make the customers feel that it's totally allright to download music with such tests.

Why not? I think downloading is perfectly ok, if people pay for the music, or if the artists decide to spread it for free this way. (Although I personally wouldn't buy mp3s, I prefer physical sound carriers myself...)
Anyway, I don't think all this is a new development actually. I mean, if you wanted to listen to music, lets say, about 150 years ago, you had to play it yourself, or go to some place where musicians were playing. Then sound carriers got invented, and you could listen to music at home, whenever you wanted to, an incredible gain of comfort. From then on, the development always went to more practical and comfortable formats, mp3 is just the latest consequence.
By the way, I'm not sure about CDs, but I don't think vinyl will die anytime soon, one important reason being "evil" styles such as Rap and Techno, and any other scene with a distinct DJ culture...

[NegatroN]

Great discussion here.

One thing that really sucked lately was a test of one big major label (Sony/BMG) to sell download coupons through big recordshop chains. You obtain a code for - let's say - 9,99? and acchieve a free download for a certain album. Plus you buy a booklet and can  create your own fully CD at home after downloading it.

I was very happy to see that people do not buy that format. Big bullshit.

The industry (and the shops) make the customers feel that it's totally allright to download music with such tests.

And ... be sure: Customers do not not care who will get the money after all.

That's - pardon the expression - right on the money, Holg. And coming from someone who actually experiences the mechanisms of selling music every day, that means something.

To me, the test you mentioned is downright cynicism. Use the chain retailer to sell virtual product to see if this is economically viable - and if it is, set up your own record store in cyberspace, then stop manufacturing physical product and leaving the real record store to rot. Imagine the cost-effectiveness of it! Such a brilliant scheme could only be thought up by corporate managers, the New World Order of soulless business school graduates in expensive suits and flashy cars on lease. This is yet another parasitic incarnation of globalization, if you look at it closely: it's destroying traditional structures, local initiatives, culture and physical interaction, all for the mighty Mammon Dollar.

Again a lot of it comes down to a complete disregard for culture in the broader sense of the term - and to the lack of education about the essence of cultural expression. This will not change: from the get-go, nearly everything in life 'teaches' you that numbers are infinitely more important than just about everything else.

I really do not see the point in that. As long as people BUY music everything is OK in my eyes. What is the problem with people buying an album "virtually" by downloading it instead of purchasing a CD or an LP? The music doesn't become worthless that way.

If someone wants his music only in digital form and not as CDs or LPs - OK, that is his right as long as he pays for it. Why do you want to force people to buy CDs if they only want digital data because that is the way they listen to it?


Take a look at the latest nine inch nails Album: <a href='http://ghosts.nin.com/main/order_options' target='_blank'>http://ghosts.nin.com/main/order_options</a>

You can buy the album in different versions, just as you like. Either only in digital form (cheapest version) up to a deluxe pack with signed CDs.

THAT is a much better way of handling the changed situation than lamenting about people don't going to small record stores anymore ...

[Cauldron_Born]

Some interesting opinions here. By the way,Michael,Prof and holydio1: Thanks for welcoming me to the board.

Howie

[Prof]

Today, one of my favourite record stores in the old town center of Amsterdam closed its doors. I've spent a small fortune there since the eighties - the store opened in 1968 mind you - and so I passed by this afternoon to have a beer and wish the guys behind the counter all the best.
Passing through the already half-empty store, this girl in the dvd-section remarked: 'Hey, I'm not going to buy this, I can download that at home for free.'
I did not hit her, which I think testifies to my selfcontrol and general niceness.

The last thing I bought there? The Agent Steel live dvd of Mad locust rising, with 30% off the store price, which did not cheer me up at all.
I think it's time for some good old Molly Hatchet now. Tomorrow's another day.

[TexasInstruments]

I know how you feel about that, Oliver. The stores I prefer most are closed since the early 90`s. These are the sign of the times, sad but very true.
Not IPODS are the death of music, not downloads or things like that. MTV was the death of music culture. This kind of crap create that event generation we have here right now.
Flat Rate parties, so much you can get nearly for free, always looking for the next issue to consume.
But to be honest, it was nearly the same in the 80`s, what music depends. I knew hundreds of people preferring tapetrading much more than buying anything. It was not such big as nowadays, but the phenomena was right there. Maybe in a smaller range, but the music industry itself was much smaller, too.
The biggest problem is the music industry in general, it`s all about quantity not quality, every fucking nerd on this planet is able to produce and release an album today.

Be proud of your self control and your general niceness, it wouldn`t change anything to hit this girl.
Because when downloads and things like that are not possible she would find other things, other events for free. Most downloaders wouldn´t buy any cd, never...

Sic, at this moment I realize how rusty my english gets, guess I must read some english publications again...

[holg]

Yeah, a well-known feeling.

First our beloved "Inferno" shop closed then the well-known "Michelle" (some might remember their ads from the eighties?) closed for a short period of time just to reopen with a totally differrent structure. Now they concentrate on Soul/Reggae and Electronic Music. But they still have vinyl.

[rapanzel]

Well, I don't have an IPOD and I won't by one.
I'm still a Vinyl and CD fan and a collector and I've never downloaded one song, except demos from band pages.
As long as there are true Metal Fans on this earth, vinyl and CD's will always be available!

[rapanzel]

And downloading, even if it's payed, totally sucks.
I wanna hold something in my hands. That feeling when you got an LP and you look at the cover, etc, that's something that todays kids do nit know, BECAUSE of downloading. It's ot just music, it's everything that's related to it and that's of course a cover, booklet and the vinyl/cd itself!!!

So, don't download, by real stuff!

[Sascha]

Paying 10 bucks for a downloaded album or paying maybe 13 bucks for a CD isn't the same thing. The record company majors want you to believe that this is the same thing.

If I download an album in MP3 format or another compressed format, I have a lossy compressed version of the music. You can lose your data and are not able to recover it.

With a CD you have your music on a copy, that has equal sound-quality to the actual master, that the factory used to press the CDs.

You have paid for superior sound quality and you can always produce MP3 lossy files of that CD as often as you want, even in 30 years. For me that means, that you pay just a little more, than for the download but you got 100 times more value from it.

They could sell the music in FLAC or another lossless format, but even If I burn this on a CD-R it is not the same, because physically CD-R and pressed CDs are not the same quality.

So if you take part in this download thing, you just fill the cash box of the majors even more for less value.

iPods are cool by the way. Totally usable in Linux and you can even install Rockbox on it to play OGG and FLAC files Yeah you can even play Quake on that thing...

[Acrylator]

Paying 10 bucks for a downloaded album or paying maybe 13 bucks for a CD isn't the same thing. The record company majors want you to believe that this is the same thing.

If I download an album in MP3 format or another compressed format, I have a lossy compressed version of the music. You can lose your data and are not able to recover it.

With a CD you have your music on a copy, that has equal sound-quality to the actual master, that the factory used to press the CDs.

You have paid for superior sound quality and you can always produce MP3 lossy files of that CD as often as you want, even in 30 years. For me that means, that you pay just a little more, than for the download but you got 100 times more value from it.

They could sell the music in FLAC or another lossless format, but even If I burn this on a CD-R it is not the same, because physically CD-R and pressed CDs are not the same quality.

So if you take part in this download thing, you just fill the cash box of the majors even more for less value.

iPods are cool by the way. Totally usable in Linux and you can even install Rockbox on it to play OGG and FLAC files Yeah you can even play Quake on that thing...

I Totally agree!

You just forgot to mention the artwork/booklets. If you buy an album in mp3, you just get a small image of the coverart (size 600 x 600 pixels) and don't get the back cover. This and the facts that you mentioned are the reason why an album on CD or vinyl is worth at at least 4 times as much as an mp3 album (even if it just costs about 30% more). I would buy mp3 albums of some bands if they don't have nice artwork and are much cheaper than the CD.
But lately I even prefer vinyl again, especially great artwork only looks great on a 12" x 12" cover.
I just hate some of the vinyl-rereleases of the last couple of years that often have a crappy scan of the old vinyl-(or even CD-)cover in very poor quality (Sepultura, Death, Mercyful Fate etc.) - we all should boykott that garbage (even if it's with 180g vinyl). The record companies should rather store (copies of) the artwork in high quality than paying someone to scan a cover and try to make a mediocre copy of the original artwork for a rerelease - That sucks!

[Sascha]

I Totally agree!

You just forgot to mention the artwork/booklets. If you buy an album in mp3, you just get a small image of the coverart (size 600 x 600 pixels) and don't get the back cover. This and the facts that you mentioned are the reason why an album on CD or vinyl is worth at at least 4 times as much as an mp3 album (even if it just costs about 30% more). I would buy mp3 albums of some bands if they don't have nice artwork and are  much cheaper than the CD. 
But lately I even prefer vinyl again, especially great artwork only looks great on a 12" x 12" cover.
I just hate some of the vinyl-rereleases of the last couple of years that often have a crappy scan of the old vinyl-(or even CD-)cover in very poor quality (Sepultura, Death, Mercyful Fate etc.) - we all should boykott that garbage (even if it's with 180g vinyl). The record companies should rather store (copies of) the artwork in high quality than paying someone to scan a cover and try to make a mediocre copy of the original artwork for a rerelease - That sucks!

Sure, for every metal fan artwork is essential, as artwork is part of our heavy metal culture. Who cares about the artwork of the latest Phil Collins album?

It's just no question, that every real fan wants to have their Doomsword paintings on 12" covers.

I just wanted to say, that I think downloading is OK if you don't care about artwork (which is unlikely for a heavy metal fan) but the way the companies try to establish the download culture is just a negative thing that should be boycotted.

Personally I would not download my music, even if they'd charge 5 bucks for a FLACed album because I love the artwork and feeling of unwrapping a new album.

Another thing that I would like to mention is, that I don't feel an artist should need a record company anymore if the sales are made via downloading only. The artists could as well sell them themselves and get all the money from the sales, which would make it cheaper. Of course they would need to advertise and pay the studio bills themselves too, which on the other hand I see as a problem.

It's a discussion that's not easy for metal freaks, because I don't feel about companies like Cruz del Sur or let's say even Nuclear Blast in the same way, I would feel about Warner Brothers or BMG. These companies mostly don't exist to maximize their profit only. And anyone who just downloads his stuff, in my opinion is no real heavy metal fan. So the discussion hardly relates to our subculture.

[Ghoul]

Another thing that I would like to mention is, that I don't feel an artist should need a record company anymore if the sales are made via downloading only. The artists could as well sell them themselves and get all the money from the sales, which would make it cheaper. Of course they would need to advertise and pay the studio bills themselves too, which on the other hand I see as a problem.

There are bands and underground labels who do this already, NIN for example, as NegatroN mentioned already.
Although I mentioned earlier in this thread, that I don't like paying for downloads, I recently downloaded Amebix's "Monolith" album (256 kbps) from <a href='http://www.moshpit-tragedy.com' target='_blank'>http://www.moshpit-tragedy.com</a>. There you can decide yourself how much you want to pay, from $0 to $10 (I chose something in between in the end). You even get a sleeve that you can print out and glue together - now that's DIY!
Bland Hand Records (Revelation/Against Nature guys) are working in a similar way, you can download anything for free, but there is the possibility of making a donation. <a href='http://www.againstnature.us/BH/index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.againstnature.us/BH/index.html</a>

It's a discussion that's not easy for metal freaks, because I don't feel about companies like Cruz del Sur or let's say even Nuclear Blast in the same way, I would feel about Warner Brothers or BMG. These companies mostly don't exist to maximize their profit only.

Come on, Nuclear Blast really are a none better than any major IMO. They even have a huge (and rather pricey) download store as well...